Absolutes, Morality, and Society
If morality is not absolute, then it is irrelevant. Let me explain.
Back before European explorers first landed in South America, the Aztecs had a thriving civilization. They had their own culture; they had their own language; they had a style of art and a structured civilization. They had a complicated mythology. Archeologists are still finding out more and more about them. They also, of course, practiced human sacrifice, and apparently on a large scale.
Then there were the Spanish. Another thriving civilization. Of course we all know what happened; put them together, start the invasion, and only the Spanish came out on top. It didn't help that the Aztecs had never been exposed to smallpox and the like. Net loss: One Aztec empire.
Don't worry, I'm not really here to discuss history; in fact, I don't really know much more about the whole incident than what I got from casual reading. I'm actually more interested in the clash of morality here. On one side, we have a group of people who sincerely believes that if they don't participate in rituals that involve human sacrifice, the gods will withdraw their favor and everyone will die (or, less apocalyptically, their society will destabilize and chaos will descend). On the other side, we have a group of people with an equally sincere belief in their own superiority and their own right to take the land they wanted. Both sides essentially believed they were doing the right thing when they took human lives.
Looking back on it, I doubt that anyone would want to revive either human sacrifice or the kind of destructive conquest that leaves entire nations scattered or dead. But there are lots of people who would say, "Well, that was right for them, back then. They believed they were doing the right thing; and it's really the intent that counts. For them, it was the right thing to do."
So here we have the idea that society, and society alone, determines what is right and wrong.
But that's faulty reasoning. First of all, to give society the responsibility for determining morality, you have arbitrarily declared that societies are infallible, and that when a society and an individual within it differ, the individual must be in the wrong. Looking back into my own country's history--both my birth country and my adopted country (Germany and the USA, respectively), I can see an awful lot of evil that was socially accepted, and a lot of individuals who disagreed. One particularly striking example is the way the US justified slavery during the time when it was legal; they actually had people preaching sermons about how it was better for black people to be slaves because they would be happier, because they were incapable of making their own decisions or taking care of themselves. Slavery was evil then, and is evil now. That we didn't acknowledge it back then doesn't make it any less true now.
But you might still say that good and evil are defined by society; in 1800, America defined slavery as "right", and in 2010 we define it as "wrong". Fine. So which society is correct? 1800s America or 2010 America? If your answer is "both", that evil changes depending on your perspective, then there's no need for a concept of "evil" at all; the term "evil" can be completely replaced by the phrase "socially unacceptable", or anyway a special case of the term that involves just the society's mores (rather than simple customs which do not arouse moral judgment from most people--for example, it is not common to keep more than five cats in the same house, but most people in our society would not judge it as wrong to keep six).
But if "evil" is the same thing as "socially unacceptable", then you can't argue about morality; you can never say something is right or wrong categorically; you can only say, "I do not prefer this" or "My society does not prefer this."
The only way for good or evil to have meaning at all is for them to have a meaning that is not determined by society. For this independent meaning to exist, Good and Evil have to exist as separate entities, outside the minds of people. Their being immaterial concepts does not preclude their being real; numbers are concepts with independent reality, for example, and so are ideas like sequence, cause-and-effect, and logic in general. (If logic had no independent reality, we wouldn't be able to reliably apply it to science.)
Now, if you want to say that good and evil have no meaning independent of sentient minds, then you can say that; but you should step out of the moral debate entirely, because with that premise, morality has no meaning. The only thing left of it is, "What can I do that will benefit me most without causing society to retaliate against me?" And that's a pretty poor sort of moral code to live by.
By the way: Who would I side with in the case of the Aztecs? Neither. As is the case in much of history, both sides were terribly wrong, and both sides suffered for it.
Back before European explorers first landed in South America, the Aztecs had a thriving civilization. They had their own culture; they had their own language; they had a style of art and a structured civilization. They had a complicated mythology. Archeologists are still finding out more and more about them. They also, of course, practiced human sacrifice, and apparently on a large scale.
Then there were the Spanish. Another thriving civilization. Of course we all know what happened; put them together, start the invasion, and only the Spanish came out on top. It didn't help that the Aztecs had never been exposed to smallpox and the like. Net loss: One Aztec empire.
Don't worry, I'm not really here to discuss history; in fact, I don't really know much more about the whole incident than what I got from casual reading. I'm actually more interested in the clash of morality here. On one side, we have a group of people who sincerely believes that if they don't participate in rituals that involve human sacrifice, the gods will withdraw their favor and everyone will die (or, less apocalyptically, their society will destabilize and chaos will descend). On the other side, we have a group of people with an equally sincere belief in their own superiority and their own right to take the land they wanted. Both sides essentially believed they were doing the right thing when they took human lives.
Looking back on it, I doubt that anyone would want to revive either human sacrifice or the kind of destructive conquest that leaves entire nations scattered or dead. But there are lots of people who would say, "Well, that was right for them, back then. They believed they were doing the right thing; and it's really the intent that counts. For them, it was the right thing to do."
So here we have the idea that society, and society alone, determines what is right and wrong.
But that's faulty reasoning. First of all, to give society the responsibility for determining morality, you have arbitrarily declared that societies are infallible, and that when a society and an individual within it differ, the individual must be in the wrong. Looking back into my own country's history--both my birth country and my adopted country (Germany and the USA, respectively), I can see an awful lot of evil that was socially accepted, and a lot of individuals who disagreed. One particularly striking example is the way the US justified slavery during the time when it was legal; they actually had people preaching sermons about how it was better for black people to be slaves because they would be happier, because they were incapable of making their own decisions or taking care of themselves. Slavery was evil then, and is evil now. That we didn't acknowledge it back then doesn't make it any less true now.
But you might still say that good and evil are defined by society; in 1800, America defined slavery as "right", and in 2010 we define it as "wrong". Fine. So which society is correct? 1800s America or 2010 America? If your answer is "both", that evil changes depending on your perspective, then there's no need for a concept of "evil" at all; the term "evil" can be completely replaced by the phrase "socially unacceptable", or anyway a special case of the term that involves just the society's mores (rather than simple customs which do not arouse moral judgment from most people--for example, it is not common to keep more than five cats in the same house, but most people in our society would not judge it as wrong to keep six).
But if "evil" is the same thing as "socially unacceptable", then you can't argue about morality; you can never say something is right or wrong categorically; you can only say, "I do not prefer this" or "My society does not prefer this."
The only way for good or evil to have meaning at all is for them to have a meaning that is not determined by society. For this independent meaning to exist, Good and Evil have to exist as separate entities, outside the minds of people. Their being immaterial concepts does not preclude their being real; numbers are concepts with independent reality, for example, and so are ideas like sequence, cause-and-effect, and logic in general. (If logic had no independent reality, we wouldn't be able to reliably apply it to science.)
Now, if you want to say that good and evil have no meaning independent of sentient minds, then you can say that; but you should step out of the moral debate entirely, because with that premise, morality has no meaning. The only thing left of it is, "What can I do that will benefit me most without causing society to retaliate against me?" And that's a pretty poor sort of moral code to live by.
By the way: Who would I side with in the case of the Aztecs? Neither. As is the case in much of history, both sides were terribly wrong, and both sides suffered for it.
(Anonymous)
I believe I can add to your logic here. By saying that there are no absolutes it seems to me that you just made an absolute. What you're describing is called moral relativism. There are those who say everything is relative. If this is true then even relativism is relative. We're back to having absolutes.
This is what I believe
1. There are absolutes
2. All human beings have biases, predjudices, and wrong information which can cloud our thought processes including us autistics.
3. I believe in order to truly get to these absolutes we as human beings have to uncloud our minds from these biases, predjudices, and wrong information.
4. I do not believe we can always get to number 3.
5. I believe we as human beings will have to continously refine our thought processes. We can get closer to infinity but we can never arrive at infinity. We as human beings will always be learning and we will always keep striving for this elusive perfection.
6. I believe this whole process is the answer. I call this process of struggle, learning, rooting out biases, and bettering ourselves Dynamic Honesty.
(Anonymous)
(I do not, however, think that this has anything to do with innate morality; just that we are more likely to be home reading than out causing trouble.)
hi
(Anonymous)
(Anonymous)
We can desire to reach an absolute -- but we are stuck with "socially acceptable" -- the question is what group in the society defines the standards.
My two cents...
(Anonymous)
interesting
(Anonymous)
absolute morality
It turns out that those facts ... were wrong. But they need to be factored into the moral reasoning regardless: we must judge (and we must judge, if we are not to abandon our own moral obligations) but we must take into account what was believed, and how persons understood their actions.
It's not morality that is in question: it is facts.
Re: absolute morality
(Anonymous)
Morality is Absolute/Humans are Flawed
Morality is independent of our perception of it. The reason why societies' perceive morality differently depending on their internal culture and mores is because human beings' perception is inherently biased. Our flawed perceptions doesn't make morality any less absolute, but it does mean no society can be an authority on morality. (And even within societies there will be disputes on whether an action is moral, even if social acceptable. There certainly was with slavery, and there probably was with human sacrifice as well.)
Stephanie
http://embracingchaos.stephanieallencris
(Anonymous)
These two lines in your essay are the reason I believe that you are absolutely correct. Why else would "The Morals of the Prince" by Machiavelli last for hundreds and hundreds of years and live on the shelves of so many "great" men and women? I would say that if there is no god with no perfect law, there is no right and there is no wrong. There is only social acceptability. Being socially acceptable is the only qualification a human has to be in a pack, and then they can pass on their socially acceptable genes. That's my take on this whole issue anyway. :) I hope God's there for all of our sakes.